Kelly Milner Halls: Welcome everyone to tonight’s chat with grammar guru Pamela Rice Hahn. We’re so glad to see such a great turn out. Late last year, Pamela saw the release of her fabulous trade paperback Teach Yourself Grammar and Style in 24 Hours. iUniverse was thrilled to schedule Hahn for a live expert chat, but she was unable to attend. Tonight, she takes us up on our rain-check to chat abour grammar for writers of every kind. Welcome Pam, we’re really glad to have you. Tell us a little about what inspired you to write the book.

Pamela Rice Hahn: Thank you. I was asked by Macmillan to do the book (via my agent) and they offered an advance. Money is a nice motivator. It was one of those fluke things, actually. The original author (a college professor) decided his schedule was such that he had to back out. So they asked me and I then wrote a sample table of contents and a proposal that convinced the editors I was up to the task. Loved writing that book — especially the example sentences!

Candy: Pam, what is your proofreading technique? I mean what steps do you take to prep the book before submitting it for publication?

Pamela Rice Hahn: My favorite proofreading technique is when I can convince a friend to do it for me. It’s almost impossible to proofread your own work! When I proofread my own work, I find it works best for me if I read the stuff out loud. More apt to catch the errors that way. I’m usually close enough to deadline that I only have time for one (on stuff done on assignment). I get spoiled because I know that my DE and a copyeditor will be checking the ms, too.

Kelly Milner Halls: Pam, what was your background…what prepared you for such a daunting project as a grammar guidebook?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Luck

Kelly Milner Halls: That looks good on a resume. No really…

Pamela Rice Hahn: Discipline. Self-study mostly. I’d worked with Macmillan before so they knew that I turn in clean mss. For that book I did have to “attach” a Ph.D. to the work though. Dr. Dennis E. Hensley (I sometimes joke that they didn’t think that “Ph.D. = Pam hahn Darnit!” would cut it.)

WCTracey: Pam, have you always been passionate about grammar?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I’ve always been passionate about words. Reading. Figuring out how a writer hones a passage so that it speaks to me (ideally without my noticing that he’s done it).

Kelly Milner Halls: Pam, can you name a few of the chapters you think are most helpful to writers? And tell us WHY they are good for scribes.

Pamela Rice Hahn: The first chapter is a good intro to the subject. It touches on why it’s so important to know the rules of grammar so that you can learn when it’s okay to break them. It’s also where I was able to stick in some corny puns and a cutesy poem I came up with for an example. Other than that, off the top of my head, I can’t name chapter numbers. Do you want me to grab the book, take a quick look-see, and advise?

Kelly Milner Halls: In a bit sure…Remember, if you have a question, type ? and we’ll call on you. Pam, what are the most COMMON grammar mistakes we make as writers?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I can add this: I’m proudest of the grammar portion of the book. (The first half.) I’m proud of the entire work, of course, but I think I felt I had to work hardest doing the actual grammar lessons so knowing I wrote that really feels like an accomplishment.

Kelly Milner Halls: So let’s back track…what are some of the most common errors we make as writers?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Mixing up possessive pronouns and contractions seems to be a biggie.

Kelly Milner Halls: Any others?

Pamela Rice Hahn: You want more? Okay. Unclear pronouns, passive voice ranks right up there.

Kelly Milner Halls: Give us examples, if you could Pam.

Pamela Rice Hahn: Gosh, example sentences take awhile. Hang on Gonna type one in from page 62, so give me a second please

“He told her that he planned to do it for her but she felt that he should not do that.”

That’s ambiguity.

Kelly Milner Halls: Okay. How about an unclear pronoun?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Give me a minute (this is all real time, first draft typing here, remember.)  In that sentence, it could the “she” who believes he shouldn’t do it or somebody else not represented in the sentence but indicated earlier. (IF that helps.) Another pronoun error that drives me up the wall, and I believe IT IS AN ERROR, is using a plural pronoun instead of “his or her” in the name of nonsexist language. One more thing: I’m of the opinion that the pronoun number (singular or plural) should match the noun. Want an example of that?

Kelly Milner Halls: Yes.

Pamela Rice Hahn: “Does ANYONE want to eat THEIR popcorn?”

In that case, ANYONE is singular. Correct would be: “Does ANYONE want to eat HIS or HER popcorn?” I shortened the example sentence so it doesn’t read as well. Add “in the living room” to the end of those examples (after popcorn) and it makes a bit more sense, unless you want a better example. LOL

Kelly Milner Halls: Nah, it’s good…thanks Pam…okay, Rob, your question?

Rob: Reading that example sentence made my teeth hurt. I’ve heard that good singers actually have a hard time singing poorly. Was it difficult coming up with these “error” sentences?

Pamela Rice Hahn: It took some time to come up with them, yes. But actually they were really fun to do. I used every family member’s name I could come up with and all of the names of my friends — online and in real life, then started asking my friends for names of their friends so I could quit repeating names. Once I got past that, sometimes paranoia would set in that I’d get one wrong.

WCTracey: Pam, do you recommend that writers proofread their own work or get another set of eyes?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Whenever possible, get another pair of eyes to help out. Hands down!

Kelly Milner Halls: Kazon, your question?

Kazon: Does Kelly remind you of a mother superior (teaching order) putting you through the paces? LOL. With informal writing I use his/her instead of his or her. Is this lazy on my part or acceptable?

Kelly Milner Halls: Bless you, my child! : )

Pamela Rice Hahn: LOL Kel. Kazon, it’s lazy if it’s formal writing. As for informal writing, acceptable is based on how informal you wish to be.

Kelly Milner Halls: Pam, how do you define what’s FORMAL or INFORMAL?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I use s/he in informal writing a lot, btw. Formal writing would be any business writing. Most essays fall within formal writing. As do most books, although allowances can be made depending on the genre or format. For example, humor writers sometimes purposely change writing style or punctuation for emphasis. Informal writing is like what’s done here in chat when I say “howdy” to my sister-in-law. Informal writing is anything that isn’t formal.

Kelly Milner Halls: How important is good grammar to the professional credibility of ANY published book?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I believe that any error that shows up in a book hinders the credibility of the entire work. I think proper grammar shows a respect for the reader.

Kelly Milner Halls: Okay, a question about dialogue. How do you BEND the rules of grammar to reflect regional accents or intellectual weaknesses WITHOUT making your book seem “dumb” or “sloppy?”

Pamela Rice Hahn: I primarily write nonfiction, so while I’ll attempt to address that question, so much of what’s done does depend on the genre, the publisher’s style guidelines, your editor’s preferences, etc. When errors show up in dialogue, the reader knows (if not consciously, at least subconsciously) that they’re intentional. To show the speaker’s voice. Blocking out on title that came to mind, so give me a minute. BONFIRES OF THE VANITY (vanities?) Wolfe had the cops use grammar errors and occasionally had an attorney insert them in his conversation so that it wouldn’t appear that he was trying to one-up them by talking correctly, if I recall.

Kelly Milner Halls: Would a good professional editor be the best idea to be sure on fiction like that, Pam?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Yes. And pray that you get a good editor with your publisher, too.

Mimosajo: My story uses a diary written by a young under-educated child. Isn’t misspellings appropriate in this case?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I would think it would be. You may want to offset the diary somehow from the other text. Indented paragraphs tricks sort of thing. In something that’s being shown that’s understood to be verbatim, those types of errors would be okay. They’re less distracting, too, than say … using too much dialect (like Twain was able to get by with but is frowned on today).

Kelly Milner Halls: Mim, a good editor I know said to go easy on dialect-driven misspellings because they slow the reader down. SHOW your child’s disability rather than TELL it with misspellings. Pam, how has writing this book effected your OWN work as a writer?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Each thing I write improves my skill, I’ve found. But what helps me even more is when I edit someone else’s work. It *is* easier to see mistakes made by another. Editing (whether it’s done formally or done for a friend as a favor) helps me see other ways to phrase sentences, etc. And, because I’m a visual learner, I canNOT say enough about how much using “revision marks” in Word has helped me see things more clearly in those edits.

Kelly Milner Halls: When is it okay to break a grammar rule? Can you give us ONE example?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Sometimes it’s better to write in complete sentences. Other times it’s better to write in fragments. For emphasis, for example.

George: I write juvenile historical fiction.  I try to incorporate the language from the American Revolution through the civil war.  Is it wrong to try and utilize the dialogue of these times?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I truly don’t feel I can speak to that. Those types of decisions depend on the genre (which I realize you’ve named), but they also depend on the publisher’s style guidelines.

Kelly Milner Halls: Pam, were there any surprises for you as your wrote this grammar guide? Things you’d forgotten, perhaps?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Thinking. Keep in mind, this book was written over a year ago. I have three books coming out this year and I’ve written what seems like a gazillion proposals, Web pages, and articles in that time, too, so my mind can only recall so much. Nothing really pops out right now. I think there’s always the feeling that, given the time, one could always have done better. But, it’s a fact of life, at some point, you’ve got to shove the thing out the door.

Kazon: When a grouping calls for commas, there seems to be two schools of though regarding the final comma before the word and. Billy brought home bread, beans and milk. Thoughts?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I am sooooooooo glad you brought that up! I’m a firm believer in the serial comma. (Putting a comma after EVERY word in the series before the conjunction — such as, “and” or “or.”) I’m of the opinion that writing “this, this, and that” has a different meaning than “this, this and that.”) The serial comma, which more and more publishers seem to be adopting as their style, helps avoid ambiguity.

Kelly Milner Halls: What about starting sentences with “But” or “And?” Is that okay now?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Not in formal writing. But, there can always be exceptions.

Kelly Milner Halls: But it’s done all the time in newspapers.

Pamela Rice Hahn: I know. And in books. Some editors hate it; some don’t mind. The same as some consider it the work of an amateur to use certain forms of punctuation!

Kelly Milner Halls, did writing this book help you get more work?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I’m sure it has. I haven’t had an editor say, “I want to work with you because I saw TYG/S” but every credit helps prove your credibility. Each work shows that you’re able to deliver. One thing that doing books for a series shows is that you’re able to deliver a work ON TIME (and usually within a SHORT amount of time). Disclaimer: I wouldn’t use THOSE CAPS in formal writing either.

Tangrene: How much can one trust the WORD program to “suggest” grammar.  It is hopeless for me when writing poetry, but since poetry is my love I tend to write in a similar fashion..and get into trouble with stories.

Pamela Rice Hahn: You can use it for suggestions, but you can’t rely on it. So what does one do when they have questions but don’t know where to go? Prior to Word 2000, Word’s grammar checker suggested “it’s” for “its” almost every time. Word is pretty good at finding passive voice. What to do depends on several factors. If you’re on deadline and don’t have much time, rewrite the sentence (in a way that you KNOW is correct). Otherwise, you can read my book.

Kelly Milner Halls: Tracey, don’t you have a question? About work space?  I’ll ask it for her. Tracey always wonders, what does your desk or work space LOOK like, Pam. Can you tell us?

Tangrene: LOL. Got it. But then I forget the question I am  looking for cause I get distracted.

Pamela Rice Hahn: You don’t want to know about my work space. LOL

Kelly Milner Halls: She DOES…trust me.

Tangrene: yes we do.

Pamela Rice Hahn: I tend to live with clutter. Actually, not by choice. Right now it’s because of lack of space and my current office arrangement. I once had a home office in the basement. (I called it “Suite B.”) There I had 900 square feet of space and I miss every little inch of that place! I live in a much smaller place now, so I’ve converted what would be the master bedroom into my office. Do you want me to go into some detail here?

Kelly Milner Halls: Nah, that’s good Pam…sounds familiar to me. Well, my friends, that kills the hour. Pam, any last comments you’d like to share? Tell us about those NEW books?

Pamela Rice Hahn: : Kelly: Keep this topic in mind. It’s one of the things we need to discuss. Thanks. Time flies! My new grilling cookbook, Lazy About Grilling: the feet up, hands down easiest ways to barbecue published by Laurel Glenn will be out in April. (It’s a cookbook with an attitude. Lots of humor.) Journey to the Center of the Internet (my first published fiction other than short stories) is out now from Syngress. It’s what I call “faction” … fictional story with “infodump” nonfiction details about the Internet. (I got my start in tech writing, btw.) Next: I’m waiting to hear what my next book will be. I’m busy building a new Web site (www.CookingWithPam.com) and writing book proposals. Oh! Another cookbook will be out in September – The Everything Diabetes Cookbook, Adams Media.

Kelly Milner Halls: Sounds great, Pam. Thanks so much for taking the hour to share your experience with us. And thanks to all of you for showing up. Rob, Tracey, you were amazing as always.

WCTracey: Thank *you* and thanks to Pam (who I kept calling Patricia)!

© 2002 iUniverse.com

Reprinted with permission.

Read an excerpt from Teach Yourself Grammar and Style in 24 Hours

Pamela Rice Hahn Interview is a post from: The Blue Rose Bouquet

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I am not at ease giving advice.

I’ve made too many mistakes and most of them I keep repeating.

Recently a friend gave a commencement speech. She asked a few friends, including me, just to be polite, I think: “What words of advice would you give a high school graduate?”

I really had to think about that one. I don’t do very much deep thinking . I’ve always skittered on the edge of intense “What Is The Meaning Of Life?/Follow Your Bliss” conversations, because I just don’t know. If this sort of topic came up at a party with people earnestly and passionately stating their earnest and passionate opinions, I would make a beeline right to the kitchen, refresh peoples’ drinks, put out some more chips, and then try to change the subject: “Hey! Speaking of whether animals or trees have souls, a squirrel fell down our chimney! Smack into the fireplace ! He wasn’t hurt! It took us two hours though to….” my voice trailing off, ,people uncomfortably staring or uncomfortably looking away.

For my friend’s speech, all I could come up with was: “When in doubt, throw it out.”

My grandmother used to say it, referring to leftover, “iffy” food.

I suppose you could apply it to other problems or situations in life, but I’ve never given it much thought.

I do have a few stock bits of wisdom I try to give my kids. I mean, besides the Parental Basic Hygiene Rules (wash hands, brush teeth, etc.) and the Drugs, Sex and Alcohol Mandate ( DON’T!). I say “We will just have to make do” a lot. This is not a command to use the bathroom. It means, well, this is all we have to work with, so use it, make the best of it, and just do it.

I also say: “Things you do come back to you”. Very karmic, that one and I like the way it rhymes like “when in doubt throw it out” does. I say “Life Isn’t Fair” all the time; but, if you think about it, it’s not true. Life is fair in its unfairness.

My friend used the “when in doubt ” one. It was funny, she said, and it got some laughs, which are always needed in the midst of seemingly endless graduation speeches.

I’m going to go clean out my refrigerator now. And think about a certain “iffy” relationship I am hanging on to….

When in doubt….

###

Copyright © 2001-2008 C. Stell
All Rights Reserved

Author Bio:

Ms. Stell is a teacher who lives in the Midwest with her two children.

Advice is a post from: The Blue Rose Bouquet

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