Kelly Milner Halls: Welcome everyone to tonight’s chat with grammar guru Pamela Rice Hahn. We’re so glad to see such a great turn out. Late last year, Pamela saw the release of her fabulous trade paperback Teach Yourself Grammar and Style in 24 Hours. iUniverse was thrilled to schedule Hahn for a live expert chat, but she was unable to attend. Tonight, she takes us up on our rain-check to chat abour grammar for writers of every kind. Welcome Pam, we’re really glad to have you. Tell us a little about what inspired you to write the book.

Pamela Rice Hahn: Thank you. I was asked by Macmillan to do the book (via my agent) and they offered an advance. Money is a nice motivator. It was one of those fluke things, actually. The original author (a college professor) decided his schedule was such that he had to back out. So they asked me and I then wrote a sample table of contents and a proposal that convinced the editors I was up to the task. Loved writing that book — especially the example sentences!

Candy: Pam, what is your proofreading technique? I mean what steps do you take to prep the book before submitting it for publication?

Pamela Rice Hahn: My favorite proofreading technique is when I can convince a friend to do it for me. It’s almost impossible to proofread your own work! When I proofread my own work, I find it works best for me if I read the stuff out loud. More apt to catch the errors that way. I’m usually close enough to deadline that I only have time for one (on stuff done on assignment). I get spoiled because I know that my DE and a copyeditor will be checking the ms, too.

Kelly Milner Halls: Pam, what was your background…what prepared you for such a daunting project as a grammar guidebook?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Luck

Kelly Milner Halls: That looks good on a resume. No really…

Pamela Rice Hahn: Discipline. Self-study mostly. I’d worked with Macmillan before so they knew that I turn in clean mss. For that book I did have to “attach” a Ph.D. to the work though. Dr. Dennis E. Hensley (I sometimes joke that they didn’t think that “Ph.D. = Pam hahn Darnit!” would cut it.)

WCTracey: Pam, have you always been passionate about grammar?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I’ve always been passionate about words. Reading. Figuring out how a writer hones a passage so that it speaks to me (ideally without my noticing that he’s done it).

Kelly Milner Halls: Pam, can you name a few of the chapters you think are most helpful to writers? And tell us WHY they are good for scribes.

Pamela Rice Hahn: The first chapter is a good intro to the subject. It touches on why it’s so important to know the rules of grammar so that you can learn when it’s okay to break them. It’s also where I was able to stick in some corny puns and a cutesy poem I came up with for an example. Other than that, off the top of my head, I can’t name chapter numbers. Do you want me to grab the book, take a quick look-see, and advise?

Kelly Milner Halls: In a bit sure…Remember, if you have a question, type ? and we’ll call on you. Pam, what are the most COMMON grammar mistakes we make as writers?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I can add this: I’m proudest of the grammar portion of the book. (The first half.) I’m proud of the entire work, of course, but I think I felt I had to work hardest doing the actual grammar lessons so knowing I wrote that really feels like an accomplishment.

Kelly Milner Halls: So let’s back track…what are some of the most common errors we make as writers?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Mixing up possessive pronouns and contractions seems to be a biggie.

Kelly Milner Halls: Any others?

Pamela Rice Hahn: You want more? Okay. Unclear pronouns, passive voice ranks right up there.

Kelly Milner Halls: Give us examples, if you could Pam.

Pamela Rice Hahn: Gosh, example sentences take awhile. Hang on Gonna type one in from page 62, so give me a second please

“He told her that he planned to do it for her but she felt that he should not do that.”

That’s ambiguity.

Kelly Milner Halls: Okay. How about an unclear pronoun?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Give me a minute (this is all real time, first draft typing here, remember.)  In that sentence, it could the “she” who believes he shouldn’t do it or somebody else not represented in the sentence but indicated earlier. (IF that helps.) Another pronoun error that drives me up the wall, and I believe IT IS AN ERROR, is using a plural pronoun instead of “his or her” in the name of nonsexist language. One more thing: I’m of the opinion that the pronoun number (singular or plural) should match the noun. Want an example of that?

Kelly Milner Halls: Yes.

Pamela Rice Hahn: “Does ANYONE want to eat THEIR popcorn?”

In that case, ANYONE is singular. Correct would be: “Does ANYONE want to eat HIS or HER popcorn?” I shortened the example sentence so it doesn’t read as well. Add “in the living room” to the end of those examples (after popcorn) and it makes a bit more sense, unless you want a better example. LOL

Kelly Milner Halls: Nah, it’s good…thanks Pam…okay, Rob, your question?

Rob: Reading that example sentence made my teeth hurt. I’ve heard that good singers actually have a hard time singing poorly. Was it difficult coming up with these “error” sentences?

Pamela Rice Hahn: It took some time to come up with them, yes. But actually they were really fun to do. I used every family member’s name I could come up with and all of the names of my friends — online and in real life, then started asking my friends for names of their friends so I could quit repeating names. Once I got past that, sometimes paranoia would set in that I’d get one wrong.

WCTracey: Pam, do you recommend that writers proofread their own work or get another set of eyes?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Whenever possible, get another pair of eyes to help out. Hands down!

Kelly Milner Halls: Kazon, your question?

Kazon: Does Kelly remind you of a mother superior (teaching order) putting you through the paces? LOL. With informal writing I use his/her instead of his or her. Is this lazy on my part or acceptable?

Kelly Milner Halls: Bless you, my child! : )

Pamela Rice Hahn: LOL Kel. Kazon, it’s lazy if it’s formal writing. As for informal writing, acceptable is based on how informal you wish to be.

Kelly Milner Halls: Pam, how do you define what’s FORMAL or INFORMAL?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I use s/he in informal writing a lot, btw. Formal writing would be any business writing. Most essays fall within formal writing. As do most books, although allowances can be made depending on the genre or format. For example, humor writers sometimes purposely change writing style or punctuation for emphasis. Informal writing is like what’s done here in chat when I say “howdy” to my sister-in-law. Informal writing is anything that isn’t formal.

Kelly Milner Halls: How important is good grammar to the professional credibility of ANY published book?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I believe that any error that shows up in a book hinders the credibility of the entire work. I think proper grammar shows a respect for the reader.

Kelly Milner Halls: Okay, a question about dialogue. How do you BEND the rules of grammar to reflect regional accents or intellectual weaknesses WITHOUT making your book seem “dumb” or “sloppy?”

Pamela Rice Hahn: I primarily write nonfiction, so while I’ll attempt to address that question, so much of what’s done does depend on the genre, the publisher’s style guidelines, your editor’s preferences, etc. When errors show up in dialogue, the reader knows (if not consciously, at least subconsciously) that they’re intentional. To show the speaker’s voice. Blocking out on title that came to mind, so give me a minute. BONFIRES OF THE VANITY (vanities?) Wolfe had the cops use grammar errors and occasionally had an attorney insert them in his conversation so that it wouldn’t appear that he was trying to one-up them by talking correctly, if I recall.

Kelly Milner Halls: Would a good professional editor be the best idea to be sure on fiction like that, Pam?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Yes. And pray that you get a good editor with your publisher, too.

Mimosajo: My story uses a diary written by a young under-educated child. Isn’t misspellings appropriate in this case?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I would think it would be. You may want to offset the diary somehow from the other text. Indented paragraphs tricks sort of thing. In something that’s being shown that’s understood to be verbatim, those types of errors would be okay. They’re less distracting, too, than say … using too much dialect (like Twain was able to get by with but is frowned on today).

Kelly Milner Halls: Mim, a good editor I know said to go easy on dialect-driven misspellings because they slow the reader down. SHOW your child’s disability rather than TELL it with misspellings. Pam, how has writing this book effected your OWN work as a writer?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Each thing I write improves my skill, I’ve found. But what helps me even more is when I edit someone else’s work. It *is* easier to see mistakes made by another. Editing (whether it’s done formally or done for a friend as a favor) helps me see other ways to phrase sentences, etc. And, because I’m a visual learner, I canNOT say enough about how much using “revision marks” in Word has helped me see things more clearly in those edits.

Kelly Milner Halls: When is it okay to break a grammar rule? Can you give us ONE example?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Sometimes it’s better to write in complete sentences. Other times it’s better to write in fragments. For emphasis, for example.

George: I write juvenile historical fiction.  I try to incorporate the language from the American Revolution through the civil war.  Is it wrong to try and utilize the dialogue of these times?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I truly don’t feel I can speak to that. Those types of decisions depend on the genre (which I realize you’ve named), but they also depend on the publisher’s style guidelines.

Kelly Milner Halls: Pam, were there any surprises for you as your wrote this grammar guide? Things you’d forgotten, perhaps?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Thinking. Keep in mind, this book was written over a year ago. I have three books coming out this year and I’ve written what seems like a gazillion proposals, Web pages, and articles in that time, too, so my mind can only recall so much. Nothing really pops out right now. I think there’s always the feeling that, given the time, one could always have done better. But, it’s a fact of life, at some point, you’ve got to shove the thing out the door.

Kazon: When a grouping calls for commas, there seems to be two schools of though regarding the final comma before the word and. Billy brought home bread, beans and milk. Thoughts?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I am sooooooooo glad you brought that up! I’m a firm believer in the serial comma. (Putting a comma after EVERY word in the series before the conjunction — such as, “and” or “or.”) I’m of the opinion that writing “this, this, and that” has a different meaning than “this, this and that.”) The serial comma, which more and more publishers seem to be adopting as their style, helps avoid ambiguity.

Kelly Milner Halls: What about starting sentences with “But” or “And?” Is that okay now?

Pamela Rice Hahn: Not in formal writing. But, there can always be exceptions.

Kelly Milner Halls: But it’s done all the time in newspapers.

Pamela Rice Hahn: I know. And in books. Some editors hate it; some don’t mind. The same as some consider it the work of an amateur to use certain forms of punctuation!

Kelly Milner Halls, did writing this book help you get more work?

Pamela Rice Hahn: I’m sure it has. I haven’t had an editor say, “I want to work with you because I saw TYG/S” but every credit helps prove your credibility. Each work shows that you’re able to deliver. One thing that doing books for a series shows is that you’re able to deliver a work ON TIME (and usually within a SHORT amount of time). Disclaimer: I wouldn’t use THOSE CAPS in formal writing either.

Tangrene: How much can one trust the WORD program to “suggest” grammar.  It is hopeless for me when writing poetry, but since poetry is my love I tend to write in a similar fashion..and get into trouble with stories.

Pamela Rice Hahn: You can use it for suggestions, but you can’t rely on it. So what does one do when they have questions but don’t know where to go? Prior to Word 2000, Word’s grammar checker suggested “it’s” for “its” almost every time. Word is pretty good at finding passive voice. What to do depends on several factors. If you’re on deadline and don’t have much time, rewrite the sentence (in a way that you KNOW is correct). Otherwise, you can read my book.

Kelly Milner Halls: Tracey, don’t you have a question? About work space?  I’ll ask it for her. Tracey always wonders, what does your desk or work space LOOK like, Pam. Can you tell us?

Tangrene: LOL. Got it. But then I forget the question I am  looking for cause I get distracted.

Pamela Rice Hahn: You don’t want to know about my work space. LOL

Kelly Milner Halls: She DOES…trust me.

Tangrene: yes we do.

Pamela Rice Hahn: I tend to live with clutter. Actually, not by choice. Right now it’s because of lack of space and my current office arrangement. I once had a home office in the basement. (I called it “Suite B.”) There I had 900 square feet of space and I miss every little inch of that place! I live in a much smaller place now, so I’ve converted what would be the master bedroom into my office. Do you want me to go into some detail here?

Kelly Milner Halls: Nah, that’s good Pam…sounds familiar to me. Well, my friends, that kills the hour. Pam, any last comments you’d like to share? Tell us about those NEW books?

Pamela Rice Hahn: : Kelly: Keep this topic in mind. It’s one of the things we need to discuss. Thanks. Time flies! My new grilling cookbook, Lazy About Grilling: the feet up, hands down easiest ways to barbecue published by Laurel Glenn will be out in April. (It’s a cookbook with an attitude. Lots of humor.) Journey to the Center of the Internet (my first published fiction other than short stories) is out now from Syngress. It’s what I call “faction” … fictional story with “infodump” nonfiction details about the Internet. (I got my start in tech writing, btw.) Next: I’m waiting to hear what my next book will be. I’m busy building a new Web site (www.CookingWithPam.com) and writing book proposals. Oh! Another cookbook will be out in September – The Everything Diabetes Cookbook, Adams Media.

Kelly Milner Halls: Sounds great, Pam. Thanks so much for taking the hour to share your experience with us. And thanks to all of you for showing up. Rob, Tracey, you were amazing as always.

WCTracey: Thank *you* and thanks to Pam (who I kept calling Patricia)!

© 2002 iUniverse.com

Reprinted with permission.

Read an excerpt from Teach Yourself Grammar and Style in 24 Hours

Pamela Rice Hahn Interview is a post from: The Blue Rose Bouquet

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Miss Sampson studied the sign and shook her head in disgust. In all her eighty-four years, she had never seen such disregard for the English Language.

The sign was posted in the window of a restaurant on Main Street. On it was printed a menu which looked as if it were done by the hand of some teenager whose best subject was art, or perhaps physical education. Anything but English. It advertised “Pizza Pop’s” and “French Fry’s” for what Miss Sampson assumed to be a low price, although she would never eat there. Nothing disgusted her more than blatant grammatical mistakes.

In situations such as this, she wanted to approach the creator of the sign, grab him or her by the ear, and ask, “Whose French, and whose fries?” She might one day try it, but she realized that it was pointless. She knew from her forty-five years of teaching that people would not learn. She turned from the sign and continued down the street. She was upset, again.

When she was a teacher, she had always tried to show the essential rules of grammar to her students; it hadn’t always been easy, but she saw to it that every student graduated from her class with a proper grammatical education. She wished that she could say the same for the teachers of today.

She had noticed a definite decline in proper grammar after Latin had been removed from the curriculum. When it was a mandatory subject, students knew what a direct object was. They knew how to use prepositions. They knew when to use “whom.”

Miss Sampson quickened her pace as she walked toward the parking lot where she had parked her car. She wanted only to go home. She was upset. She felt betrayed.

Perhaps it was due to apathy among teachers, she thought, or to the ignorance of the general public. But, whatever the cause, its effects were completely intolerable. Something had to be done.

She began to drive home, veering blocks out of her way to avoid a sign that particularly annoyed her. It was located in front of a Real Estate office, and on it were advertised such statements as “Prises Cut”, “Beet The Tacks”, and “Bye a lot Now”. The sign was designed, she supposed, to attract attention, but it did nothing more than make the people in the office seem foolish.

She was almost home when an idea struck. She turned her car around, drove to the mall, and went into the Office Supply store.

“Hello, Miss Sampson,” the owner said, greeting her in much the same way he had when he was eight. “What do you need today?”

“Oh,” she said, peering down one of the aisles, “I came in to look at your markers.”

The man smiled and nodded his head. “Right over here,” he said, and guided her down the aisle. “I have to go and check some things in the back, so I’ll get one of the employees to help you.”

“Thank you.” Miss Sampson smiled at him and began to look at the selection of markers on the shelf.

She had picked up a few when a young man approached her. He was well-groomed, well-dressed, and seemed very pleasant. But he should have kept his mouth shut, she decided. It completely destroyed the image.

“What can I do you for?” the young man asked.

Well, you could start by not ending your sentences with prepositions, she thought, but ignored his mistake. She had far too many pressing things on her mind than to bicker with a stock boy.

She explained that she was looking for markers, and he helped her to pick out a wide variety. Once she was satisfied, she went to the counter to pay. She had amassed quite a collection.

“You sure seem to need a lot of blue,” the checkout clerk noted as she pushed the buttons on the cash register. Miss Sampson had chosen just about every type of blue marker they had, with a few extra colors just in case.

“My granddaughters are coming in for the weekend,” she lied. “They like to play with dolls, and they have decided to paint a sky.”

“Sounds like a huge undertaking,” the clerk said, not even looking at the elderly lady. “I hope you have fun.”

Miss Sampson smiled. I think I shall, she thought.

She left the store and thought about the lie she had told the clerk. There was no way the clerk could know that Miss Sampson had never married. She simply didn’t want suspicion thrust upon her, and that story was the best that she could manufacture at the time.

When she arrived at home, Miss Sampson laid her markers out on the table and studied them intently. She was happy with her purchases; she now owned a marker for every occasion. The largest one had a tip that was almost an inch wide, and was precisely what she needed for what she wished to do.

She gathered it and the others together and carried them to her sewing room. She had plenty of work to do before dark.

***

Miss Sampson crept quietly along the bushes, ducking low to avoid the lights of passing cars. She was dressed completely in black, from her collar to her shoes, and she had a black balaclava pulled over her head. It was hot but necessary. She needed something to cover her white hair.

She crouched outside the Real Estate office, studying the detested sign. She reached inside her jacket and removed the large poster marker from the pocket she had sewn into it that afternoon. She uncapped the marker and began to write.

The blue appeared black in the darkness, but the shiny ink was clearly discernible as she wrote. She corrected the spelling of “bye,” “prises,” and both “beet” and “tacks.” It took only moments, and she crept quickly away once she had finished. There was no time to admire her work tonight. The enjoyment would come tomorrow.

She had many similar corrections to make that evening, and only had so much time. She had to work quickly if she hoped to finish on schedule.

***

She stifled a yawn as she drank her orange juice the next morning. She had watched the sun rise from beyond the horizon and then sat down to watch the morning news.

There was no report of her deeds on the local news. It would take until noon to tape a story. Miss Sampson knew that the reporters couldn’t possibly miss the item, since she had corrected a sign outside their building, too. She leaned back in her chair and smiled with satisfaction.

She was tired. She would have liked to have gone to bed, but there were more corrections to make yet that day. One she especially wanted to correct was the sign in the window of the restaurant on Main Street. It would be a challenge, but she looked forward to it.

***

It had been difficult to get down the sign unseen, but Miss Sampson had managed. She snuck it into the bathroom and made her corrections there. She scolded herself when she found another – “Perogy’s” were six for a dollar ninety-five.

She made her changes and replaced the sign, hoping that no one had noticed. She had changed from her black “evening-outfit” into a flowery print dress. Its large pockets required no alterations and now held a select few of the markers she had bought the day before.

She returned home satisfied. Perhaps now, she thought, people will take grammar more seriously and realize their mistakes. She turned on the television and waited for the news.

The story of her corrections was the second to be shown. They aired clips of much of her handiwork, including a sign that had advertised a “multy-family” garage sale. As she had corrected it, she wondered idly if those people wrote “multyple”, too.

The Police, according to the report, were treating it as an act of vandalism, and not the service to society that it was. Ah, well, she thought. The had laughed at Einstein.

The report went on to say that an intense investigation was underway to find the perpetrator of this “heinous crime.” Too bad there wasn’t a murder last night, Miss Sampson thought dryly. It might have lightened the reporter’s spirits.

Miss Sampson shut off the television and went upstairs to bed. She had gone almost thirty hours without sleep, and it was not an experience to which she was accustomed at all.

***

She was awakened the following morning by the insistent ringing of the doorbell. She rose on its third ring and answered the door on its sixth.

“Miss Sampson?” the officer outside asked.

“Yes, may I help you?” she asked, gathering her robe tightly around her.

“I am here to investigate a case of vandalism, Ma’am. I would like to ask you a couple of questions.”

Damn. “Well, of course, officer. Come in.”

She led the officer into the house and offered him a chair at the kitchen table. He opened his notebook and looked down at the page.

“Now, we got a phone call from the people at the office supply store,” he told her, “And they seem to remember you buying a lot of blue markers. Did you?”

“Well, yes, officer,” Miss Sampson nodded, supposing that the granddaughter story wasn’t as brilliant as she had thought. “But that hardly makes me a criminal.”

“I know,” the officer said, nodding. “But there were a couple of people who saw you changing the sign in the restaurant. Do you deny that?”

Miss Sampson almost did, but admitted to the officer that she was the perpetrator. He sighed and told her that he would have to take her to the station.

She nodded her head slowly. “Just let me get my teeth.”

***

Miss Sampson looked at the man sitting outside the door. he was one of the men, the officer had told her, who had seen her replacing the sign. She had waited outside while the man gave his statement, and was now being ushered into the office where she would give hers.

This was the first time Miss Sampson had ever been arrested. It was an entirely invigorating experience. She had never felt the like before.

She gave her statement, and then was asked by the officer to sign the page. She read over the page and winced.

“Honestly, officer! This is precisely the thing I was trying to stop!” she said, grabbing the pen and correcting the mistakes. The officer obviously didn’t know when to use a possessive apostrophe any better than the general populace did.

She thrust the page into the officer’s hands and grabbed the other man’s statement. Before the officer could conjugate the verb “to be” in both the indicative and the subjunctive, she had corrected that one too.

***

On the day of her court appearance, Miss Sampson was led into the courtroom and shown to the defendant’s stand. She didn’t contest the charges, on her lawyer’s advisement, but explained her actions to the judge.

“So you see, your Honor, grammar is in such a deplorable state, I simply had to act.” The Judge nodded his head thoughtfully for a moment, and then sat up in his chair.

“Since this is a first offence,” he began, “and given the nature of the crime involved, I think that one hundred hours of community service would be in order.” He smiled down at her. “Hopefully this service will be performed in elementary schools, aiding in the instruction of students on the usage of proper grammar.” He tapped his gavel on the bench. “Case dismissed.”

The judge called to Miss Sampson, asking her to approach the bench. “I would just like to say one more thing. Please try to keep your nocturnal activities to a minimum.”

The elderly lady’s smile grew even larger. “Of course, your Honor.” She began to giggle as she asked, “You are not going to demand the seizure of my weapons?”

The Judge smiled. “I think not, Miss Sampson. Perhaps you will be able to use them in your new capacity.”

“Perhaps so,” she nodded.

“And, next time,” he continued, “you might wish to approach the owners of a sign when you see an imperfection. It would be much kinder to your record.”

“I shall,” Miss Sampson replied. It might be unnecessary, she realized. Already the signs in the windows of the town were being replaced with ones that were more carefully constructed.

“Good,” the Judge said. “I’m glad this is finished with.”

Miss Sampson let it pass.

###

Copyright © 2000-2008 David L. Hebert
All Rights Reserved

Author’s bio:

David L. Hebert is a Canadian practicing lawyer. In addition, his work as an author and editor has included contributing to Macmillan Teach Yourself Grammar and Style in 24 Hours and The Unofficial Guide to Online Genealogy. He is the author of The Everything Learning French Book. You can learn more about him by visiting his personal Web site.

Perfect Sentence is a post from: The Blue Rose Bouquet

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